Episode 27(Part:2): The Amends Process in Recovery with Steven Crozier

Steven Crozier shares his journey and advice on making meaningful amends, exploring the depth of forgiveness beyond simple apologies. Through personal stories and practical tips, he guides listeners in releasing guilt and achieving inner peace.

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Hello world, and welcome to Choices Books and Gifts, where you always have choices. So I think you've met this gentleman before. We're doing a series of four episodes on each of his pamphlets. The second pamphlet we will enjoy, along with Steven Crozier's writings, is Amend's Apologies and the Myths of Forgiveness.

I mentioned before you can get these in the store at Choices Recovery Centers, LLC on 220 East 78th Street (Between 2nd & 3rd Avenues), New York, NY 10075. You can go to choicestgifts.com and make a purchase. Steven also has a few stores around the country, and you can also purchase them on Amazon.

If you want to mention those stores, please do. I think it was Visions Bookstore in New Westminster, my 12-step store in Santa Monica. And Gifts Anonymous in Scottsdale.

Perfect, and I suggest that after this episode, you will see why I highly recommend you pick up some of these pamphlets. They are fantastic. All right. So we're going to jump right into it with Steven. Hopefully, you've followed along with us and will continue to do so. Once again, we're making amends, apologies, and the myths of forgiveness.

A guide to the eighth and ninth steps with, you know, all the steps are extremely important. But, you know, truly making amends and getting past that is helping your life move on to the next and next level. So this is such an important subject matter. Steven, my first question is,.

What inspired you to write a pamphlet about amends, forgiveness and recovery?

A couple of things, Jay: First, what you discussed was a milestone in my recovery. It marked a watershed moment in my healing to complete these steps. I also benefitted from an excellent sponsor who accompanied me through these steps. He was so beautifully organized and patiently walked me through it.

There was tension, and I wanted to do what I could to pass that along and pay it forward the way we do in the program. So I wrote this booklet as a very practical guide to, you know, what I saw as the set steps within the steps, you know, the pieces of the puzzle that get us through the eighth and ninth steps. Also, I had sponsored many people through this immense process by then.

I'd seen a lot of the pitfalls, know that I had some I encountered myself, some of which were new, But so I wanted to, like, you know, help identify as many of those as possible and solutions that I had seen So that was what was behind.

That's wonderful, and I agree with you. Think, you know, to have the right sponsor. I mean, I was very blessed to have a fabulous sponsor. He took me through the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous through the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous. He was very patient, kind, and loving to me. And I think that's so important. How do you differentiate between an apology and making true amends?

I think it's an important distinction. There's an overlap, I would say, between them. They have some similarities. But probably the simplest way of putting it is an apology can be as simple and even as shallow as I'm sorry. It's like that. And honestly, in our culture, I think that has become devalued.

You know, it's people kind of tossing it off. It's often used just to say, can we move along here? Yeah, okay, I see you're upset. I'm sorry. Let's move on. You know, it just doesn't necessarily carry a lot of weight. It can, but not in all situations, and it is subject to not being a significant thing.

Amends are in my mind, and how we practice them in the 12 steps is an entirely different process. They are a deep self-examination, a deep dive into the fullness of how we have behaved, the impact of that behaviour, and an intention to make right where we have been wrong.

It is an intense process. I would call it a sacred process; it is so much more in my mind than in the public.

Yeah, yeah, I tend to agree. I mean, to evaluate what you did. And I think sometimes the difference between an apology and amends is, know, I've looked at myself, I've done this, and I'm going to try my best never to repeat those actions. So I think that helps us tremendously. What are the most common misconceptions?

Right on. I have no doubt, dude. I have encountered some of them. I made some of them myself. And boy, let's see. In some ways, this feels like I'm jumping to the end, but I think it's the most common misconception. So, I'm gonna hit that one hard first. And that is the idea that at the end of this process, I'm gonna be forgiven. I'm gonna be rewarded with this like a gold star or a Somebody's gonna wave a wand over me, and I'm gonna be forgiven, and all of this will be lifted from me. And that certainly can happen, but it's not guaranteed to happen. People are subject to thinking that they may have done their men's work correctly or that they did something wrong when they don't get that warm fuzzy. I hear you; all is forgiven. I'm really thankful for doing whatever.

Positive things can come out of an immense process. They aren't guaranteed, and that's not always the response a person will get. We need to be prepared for those, you know, we need to be emotionally and spiritually prepared for whatever outcome we receive. So I think this misconception that this is an automatic pathway to forgiveness and warm fuzzy feelings, you know, is dangerous because, as I said, people are subject to thinking they didn't do it right if that's not what they get.

The other misconception I address in the booklet is that it is subject to as we work through this process and decide whom we owe amends to. I certainly did it. I've seen my sponsors do it. I think it's just a human thing when we're looking at the plate in situations where we behave poorly to go right away to yeah. Still, they did Insert the justifying behaviour, the justifying injustice that I received that I reacted poorly to.

To, you know, I don't know what amends that person because they didn't treat me well, you know.

And honestly, my opinion is that it's not true. Now, it's not that, in fact, what the other person did does not matter at all. You know, if I reacted poorly to it, behaved outside of my moral compass, or responded hurtfully, that is the behaviour for which I'm accountable. And regardless of the behaviour, I was reacting to IOVMS. So those are the two big things.

Yeah, yeah. And a lot of times, listen, I, you know, there are things that, you know, some people just don't want to forgive us for, you know, just sometimes you're not going to get the reaction you want to that amends. But you know, what I was taught and told is, you know, you took the action, you went out there and did it. So you've done your part. Whether they want to forgive you or not, you must forgive yourself.

And that's probably going to touch on this a little bit later. But that gets into the myths of forgiveness part. We owe the amends regardless of what the other person did. And the amends are successful, regardless of how the other person reacts.

Regardless. Absolutely, absolutely. How do you recommend approaching people with whom you need to make amends but no longer have contact? This is a good question.

Very careful.

Because they may not be happy with this for some, you know, excellent reasons. So yeah, it's seriously, delicately with, with respect and, with a light touch, you know, it's, in the booklet, I, provide a sort of template form, like a contact letter. An initial contact letter. That's what it just says.

I'm in recovery now. I've been working for so long. You know, part of my recovery process is making amends for things that I've done wrong. I believe you're somebody that I've harmed. And if you are open to it, I would like to offer you an immense, and but make it clear to them that how they receive that amends and even whether they receive it, you know, completely up to them if they don't want to hear from you ever again, fine.

God bless you. And, you know, go on with your life. And if you do, you're open to the amends, but you're not. You don't want to see my face. You know you want it. You want it in the letter. You want The email. That's fine too, you know? So, just with it. Always care for the people who work for maximum care.

Great, great.

What is the critical difference between asking for forgiveness and seeking to make things right?

You know, they are. They're part of the same process but not the same thing.

The seeking to make things right is the self-examination, the acknowledgement that I've done wrong, that I've done harm, and the offering up of my accountability for that and my willingness to do what I can to make it right. That's the amends process, and it's a necessary process.

Seeking forgiveness is part of the next step. But it's not. One does not necessarily lead to the other, at least not in human terms. I don't know, I assume we'll talk about the myths of forgiveness later in the discussion, so I'll hold off on discussing that too deeply.

We will.

But as I said earlier, I think it's a misconception to go into the amends process thinking that we can expect forgiveness from other people. I don't think it works that way. I believe the amends process, as I've described it, has a value in and of itself and that forgiveness is a process that may or may not occur or occurs in different ways depending on whether we're talking about God or a person.

Understood, understood.

How can someone reconcile the need to make amends with situations that could cause even more harm than good?

You know, that's baked into the steps. It's like making direct amends to other people, except when to do so within do to them or others. So that's a determination that we have to make.

And when I say we, I mean it's not a determination that the person working the steps is trying to make alone. There are all kinds of ways that can go wrong. Go sideways. For one thing, we may cut ourselves too much slack. You know, we may. There may be similar, particularly icky, amends that will be hard for us to make.

And we may just decide. And wrong has, oh, that's that might do harm. I mean, I'm not going to do that. Mean that's going to harm. You know, you need a sponsor with a good bullshit detector to help you through that. So it is a we process, but the possibility of harm is genuine, and it's there in the step for a reason.

So it is very important, with counsel, prayer, and guidance, to make that determination and not step into it. If there's a possibility that we can do that harm, it's very, very important. But we're not the ones who should make that determination ourselves.

We are way too way to get a lot of cells off the hook.

Yeah, yeah, I, I can't agree more. That's why we have sponsors and people we go to help us evaluate if this is something we should move forward and do or not. Yeah.

How does making amends to oneself fit into the eighth and ninth steps?

Man, I think this is a critical part of this step. And I don't hear it talked about enough. You know, it's not clear in the step taken that it's not obviously forbidden, but it does. It is not clear from the step that you're one of the people that you ought to be making amends.

But to my way of thinking, it's like a no-brainer. I mean, who did I harm more in addiction than myself? You know, I was the primary victim of my acting talent, and, You know, we talked in the early Podcast about self-care and self-love as elements of our healing process.

Part of that process of self-love and self-care was realizing that I did not deserve to be treated that way. You know, I am worth more than that. And I owe myself an amends for the way that I behaved.

Now, when I work on this with my sponsor, this is the last amendment that you have made.

 

You know, it's okay, you've got all this other work. Now, let's look in the mirror. Yeah. And do that same process. And man, I did. I'm a little choked up as I'm just thinking about it. Thinking about doing that. I did it at the speaker's meeting in my home. And it was so powerful.

It was just to hear myself tell myself that I deserve better than that. It was a huge moment for me.

I love it. It is so true. And I feel the exact same way. It's huge. Absolutely huge.

What emotional challenges do people face when making amends, and how can they work through them? Because it is like you said, it's a lot.

You know, it's yeah, yeah, it is. It is a lot. Everything is every day. I mean, if a person is working the step thoroughly with full intention, you're bringing up everything you know you're bringing up. How was I feeling at the time that this happened? How do I feel about it now? So fear. Shame, guilt, sadness, you know, just the whole spectrum of the reasons that we were in addiction to avoid, you know, with I drank and drugs so I didn't have to feel those things.

But now here they are, you know, in living colour. So there's a lot, there's a lot.

For one thing, it's the eighth and ninth steps for a reason. You know, will we have built up emotional reserves and emotional equilibrium through working steps one through seven, you know, and further and more than that, just as much as that, we have built up a support system of people who can you can see us through this, who can, who see us for who we indeed are and who can accompany us on this journey.

Be prepared. All of that's going to come up, and it's okay. It's part of it. You know, working through that and being able to go through it is part of our healing. It's part of what defines us as sober, recovered individuals. But we don't have to do it alone. We shouldn't do it alone.

And I think in. The particularly scary thing is that the men's men bookend those things, you know, about bookend it.

Right. Absolutely. Somebody beforehand, you say, I'm going to do this thing. I'm feeling scared. I'm feeling guilty. I'm feeling some shame, you know? And I want to give that up. I want to give up my higher power. And I will get to the saying, this is what I want to come out to at the end.

You call him when it's over and say this is how it went. This is how I feel. And you get to hear that support that I listen to you, men. I'm still here for you. I still love you. You're all right. You're going to be all right. Bookending it. So yep. Bookending is so essential. And what you said, which I thought was numero uno, is don't try to do this alone.

No, no.

You know, you have so much support from people who went way before you, and you have had all sorts of experiences and just survived and thrived. So,.

How does making amends support long-term emotional sobriety and healing?

It's critical to it, in my opinion, today, it's we have to go through this if we're going to be emotionally whole and, you know, in our sobriety and here's how it works for me.

Here's how it works for me as I continue to work. You know, our actions in, in the past, the way we treated people, the way we showed up in relationships, and, in society, you know, our active addiction carries a weight to it.

And because of who we are in addiction because we are in full-blown denial, full-blown retreat from the reality of our actions. You know, we just carry that stuff. We hold it inside. We don't. Emotions are intended to pass through us. They're intended to be the information that moves through us in real-time. But that's not the way it works for us in addiction.

We hold that stuff, man because we deny it. We wear it. We are an illusion about the reality of what it is we're doing. But some part of us knows our body and soul, what we have done and what we are carrying, and the only release for that, in my opinion, is the immense process.

Also, steps one through seven will also, you know, get us and move us towards that point. But the only way to release that stuff, to let it down, and to take accountability for it is to look at the people we have harmed in the eye. Where possible, look them in the eye and own our actions, our remorse for them, and our commitment to not treat anybody else that way.

That's what it takes to release ourselves from that weight and that burden. Until we do it, we will carry it around, and it will show up. It's going to come out one way or another.

Yeah. And I just want to mention to people that we're talking so much about all this hard work, difficulty, and things of that nature.

But, as we go through this, we're also healing and getting better. So sometimes, while you're doing the work, it helps.

It's not all suffering and bad. This is all good stuff that we're talking about and getting, you know, we're breaking through. You know, mountains of bullshit and, and getting to it.

And it can be a positive thing in our lives. So don't be afraid of all this work we're talking about. 

One of the greatest benefits of working the steps for me is that this occurred in real time as I made amends. Like an embodied truth, I could feel in my body that I was not that person anymore.

You know what allowed me to show up, make those amends, and be accountable for that is that I'm not that guy anymore. And that, and I mean, I can even feel it now as I'm thinking about it in real-time as I was making amends, I just had this awareness. Oh my gosh, I'm not that person anymore. And what a wonderful feeling.

And there's no other way to realize it than to do that. But to do that, to feel that in the middle of an amends, recognize that I'm here because I'm not that guy anymore. Wow, wow. What a moment.

How do you help people release guilt or shame when making amends seems impossible?

Patience. I'm thinking about my, you know, that sponsor that I. That I've helped through.

My immense process with that when I worked through my sponsor took.

12 to 18 months. Wow. It was. Yeah, it was not. It was not. That's how I work with my sponsor, man; I am in no hurry for people to get through this.

It takes what it takes, and patience and acceptance serve us in every area of our recovery. Nowhere more so than in this immense process. Nothing says that we have to do this in any particular amount of time. We have to make some amends. We can do that.

Problem, some amends, man. It takes months, maybe even years, to reach the point where I'm willing and capable of doing it. And yeah, take however much time you need. Take that up.

Yes, yes, I agree. I know my responses start out with the easy ones. And when we worked our way into the harder ones later, I got some advice. Also, the ones you think are impossible and out of your realm are asking God for help.

Ask God for some guidance and help to get through to make those amends. And that was a big help for me as well. Yeah.

What myths about forgiveness do you aim to dispel in this pamphlet?

So, the first one I've touched on is expecting forgiveness to be the inevitable outcome of this accountability. Okay. It's, you know, it's not going to happen every time.

People are people or people, you know, everybody's got their own stuff. Everybody's got their own, you know, set of tools and skills for dealing with these kinds of uncomfortable situations. Sometimes, you're going to get forgiven. Sometimes people will be just as mad at you as they were when you walked into the room, you know, and that's the way it goes, you know, it's critical in this immense process to let go of the outcome.

 

It's a life skill we need in every area of our lives, but nowhere more so than making amends. We have to let go of the, yeah. But I think there's a further.

I'll call it a misconception that I treat as a myth of forgiveness, and that is,. I'll explain it by saying there really are two kinds of forgiveness.

And we only use one word for them both. And I think that that contributes to the confusion. And there are two kinds of forgiveness. There is the human-to-human kind of forgiveness, which really, in my mind, represents letting go. It's like I agree. I am letting go of my resentment toward you and the anger that I have caused you.

I'm letting go of the blame that I held towards you and letting that down. And you know that there's a release for both sides. Honestly, I think that kind of forgiveness is more for the person who was harmed than the person who did the harm. You know, because we release ourselves of this burden of carrying this resentment around.

And that's one form of forgiveness. That's what we talk about being forgiven by somebody in a situation. I think there is a deeper form of forgiveness, a more profound, deeper state of forgiveness that is only available from the divine and our higher power, and that we must seek from our higher power, not from other people.

And that forgiveness is that forgiveness in the purest sense of the word, in the sense of being. It's talked about in some of these things being washed clean, you know, as having the burden of that weight, shame, guilt, and sadness lifted from us, and for me, only God can do that, you know.

And I have to seek God's forgiveness, not another person's. Another person can't do that from me because that is the product of absolute and unconditional love. When we open ourselves up to that and do the necessary things to achieve that level of forgiveness, I think there are some things that we need to do to accomplish that with God.

Once we've done that, we get forgiveness all over the level.

Perfect. This next question is the one that I've really wanted to ask because I'm sure a great many people have a problem with it. All right.

How can someone approach amends with someone who has passed away or is no longer in excess of them, and you don't want to hold on to that guilt? So how do you how do you handle it?

That's a great question, brother. And I believe it's possible. I absolutely do. It's possible. I've experienced it myself, and I've what I've walked responses with to do the same thing. And it gets back to that whole idea of.

That the amends process is it's what we do.

You know, we the people in recovery, we the people who are working the steps that create the immense process, even if the person is actually there and decides not to forgive us, you know, in that whatever we were looking for, for forgiveness for them, even with this, until we have still done our events. We have done them well because we have done them to the best of our ability, with full intention.

And that intention is enough to release that, to release that, if we allow it to if we are willing to let it go. And the same is true for people who are no longer here. We still need to go through the entire process with full intention. And if it helps you to treat that person as though they were there, if it helps you to, you know, talk to the universe and see that they are out there somewhere, they can hear. That's fine. But what we need to do is.

A process as fully, as ultimately as we would if the person was actually there, and then, you know, create a letter, write a letter to the person, and take it to your sponsor, take it to a meeting, take it to you, take it to you to a recovery group, and offer it up.

Offer it up. And I'm a big believer in ritual. I think ritual is sacred. And I think ritual can accomplish beautiful things and create a ritual of your amending process for the people who aren't there. I've made amends for people who are dead. I've made amends with people I will never meet. You know, I've made a mess of people to whose names?

I don't know, but I wrote them and felt complete. When I was done with them. Yeah. Yeah, I, I like you. I got the letter amended and the letter in the bottle and sent it to the ocean. So there's you, but whatever works, there are many different ways of doing it, but yes, I've had the same experience.

How can making amends affect relationships with loved ones or, within that, or within the fellowship with loved ones, or within the fellowship?

I think the benefits that flow out from amends work both ways. For one thing, for us, for the people offering the amends,. It's that experience that I was describing to you, that experience.

I'm not that person anymore. So that visceral in the body. Oh my gosh, that's not me anymore, you know, so healing, so joyful. Such a blessing to experience that for the people receiving the amends. I think a couple of things can happen. One, the person to whom you were offering the amends may be carrying some story that somehow they are responsible for that bad behaviour they received and deserved.

Somehow, they set it up that somehow they were at fault. You know, and we can be part of helping them realize that it's not them, you know, that they don't have to carry that anymore because it wasn't them. It was me. You see, I'm the person who responded that way. And I chose to react that way and am accountable for it.

It's not on you that that's how I choose to respond. So we can help people that let go of that. And then I think this is my spiritual view of the world again. But I think everybody wants everybody to heal. You know, I really believe that in our hearts, everybody wants everybody to get better.

And to witness somebody who has harmed you in the past come to you, be accountable for that behaviour, and say that they want to do anything they do to make it right is healing. And it's human for everyone. It's not for both parties.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. For both parties. Absolutely. What advice would you give to someone overwhelmed by their a-step list?

Back to patience, man. Back to this: it is a marathon, not a sprint. Take your time. Take as much time as you want. Keep talking about it. Don't put it in a cabinet or look at it for a while. Keep talking about it. Keep working with it. But take the time that you need.

You know there is no hurry. You have the rest of your life to work through this. Just keep working on it. Don't stop.

Cool, such an important subject matter. You know, I like to ask you this. And you answered some absolutely fantastic questions so wonderfully. Are there any last thoughts or ideas you want to leave people with?

Just really to kind of sum it all up, man. This is what we talked about. Yeah. This is a tricky step. Yeah. It's a lot of work. Don't be intimidated. Don't put it off. We need this. We need this, and we're worth it. We are worth the work that it takes. And the rewards are so great.

They are so much greater than the work that we put into it. Don't do it alone. Don't shy away from it.

May you enjoy the blessings that I have enjoyed. To enjoy that feeling, that knowledge that you are not that person anymore, that you are on the road to recovery and that you never have to be in that place again.

Once again, Steven, I have to say that I agree with everything that you said, and you've said everything so eloquently and beautifully. If I had listened to it the first time, it would have given me the courage and direction to move forward, especially asking for help. I don't have to do anything alone anymore.

So I really want to thank you. I appreciate you and look forward to our next episode because these are fantastic. I want to thank everybody who's tuned in. May God bless you, Steven, and the people out there listening. And we look forward to seeing you real soon. Thanks again. Thank you.