Episode 30: From Warrior to Civilian: A Hero's Journey to Healing and Transformation

 

Alex Genzer and Robert Sarver discuss their book Warrior to Civilian, offering insights and practical tools to help veterans and families transition to civilian life with healing and purpose.

 

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Hello world, and welcome to Choices Books and Gifts, where you always have choices. I am super honored today because we have two really wonderful, wonderful guests. I am going to tell you a little bit about them, read a bio, and then we're going to get right into questions with them.

So today, you always have choices. We're honored to welcome Alex Genzer and Robert Sarver, coauthors of the transformative book Warrior to Civilian: The Field Manual for the Hero's Journey. This inspirational and practical guide addresses the old, often overlooked challenges veterans and their families face as they transition back into civilian life with a focus on healing, redemption, and transformative practices.

The book offers a fresh perspective on navigating the post-service journey.

In this episode, we'll explore their mission, the inspiration behind the book, and the practical steps they've outlined to help veterans find their footing in civilian life. And I'm going to give you a brief background on our guest today. Alex. Jen Zero is a corporate lawyer and partner at Seyfarth Shaw LLP, specializing in capital markets.

His expertise and passion for supporting veterans are evident in his work and this book. Robert Soffer is a former Navy Seal with seven deployments and multiple commendations, including the Bronze Star Medal. Since leaving the military, Robert has transitioned into leadership and executive roles, as is a co-founder of organizations like The Hero's Journey, LLC. Welcome, gentlemen, and it's an honor. I mean that to have you on our podcast.

Thank you. It's great to be back. We really appreciate that. Excellent, excellent. So, really quick, before we get started, the book's going to be coming out. I see it on Robert's back, but Alex is going to show us the book. Okay. Yeah, there's a great picture of it. Look at it.

Remember it and buy it. All right. We're going to jump into our questions points, two wonderful gentlemen. And we'll go from there. So, question one, what is paired hired: to write Wawro civilian, the warrior Two Civilian Ero’s Journey. Was there a Hero's story or event that catalyzed this project for you both?

Thank you for the question. I think it was a series of events that took place. So I helped Alex's son move over from WRAL, and I kind of helped with the admissions process over to the Naval Academy. So when Alex and I were working together at a private equity shop, Alex,

As a return of the favor, I would have weekly phone calls with me to mentor me on debt credit markets.

Those conversations turned very personal to my combat experience transitioning out of the military and the struggles that I had. Alex, at that time, shared his own personal struggles and tragedies. But Alex, to Alex's credit, he's the one that took a step back and said, Rob, we've lived two very different lives, but there's universal themes here.

Lessons learned, failures, tragedy, all these things that make us human. So Alex recognized that, and he came back and said, you know, we should really write a book to help veterans transition and to work through these things. Yeah. That's terrific. Question two. Lieutenant Rob Sarver, as a former Seal, the former Navy Seal, brings a unique perspective.

How did your collaboration with him shape the book? Alex?

Yeah. It's actually a very important question because it's not an obvious one.

Because of our working together, we quickly became good friends. I think a very high sharing of values and perspectives about what matters in life. The discussions about the book took form and shape, and what developed was to follow what Rob said a moment ago, which was kind of a shared sense of humanity in life journeys, whether one is military and veteran or pure civilian.

The partnership we developed has many dimensions. It required us to look at interviews and research about veterans, which we conducted over five years and encompassed hundreds of interviews. And we've read everything that's out there about these topics. We had to break them down in our discussion about what matters in the report, training them in a book so they would not take their most essential elements for granted because we had to explain them to each other from very different perspectives.

I would imagine we would say that our partnership is a microcosm of what can exist in the world between veterans and non-veterans, and bridging the military-civilian divide in our country would be a great consequence of the work we've done

 

The book took five years of reach research and interviews, which I think makes you both experts.

What were some of the most surprising or impactful discoveries during that time?

Well, I think Alex and I both gained a new perspective, not only giving each other but also internally for that. So, a lot of life lessons came back to us. What we found was a lot of reinforcement and past discoveries.

You know, the hero's journey and going through and controlling your own story, your own narrative, you know, helping people through this, you know, coming back from the unknown universe to the known universe. So, looking at those frameworks really helped us reinforce a lot of old things. But then there was also some new discovery. We talk about this new developing field of psychedelics.

In the book, we talk about, you know, for we finally can put a name behind PTSD and what, the last 20 years of warfare. And if you go back, I think it was Doctor Edward Tic who said that there are almost 80 references throughout the history of what we thought this disease was. It goes back to the biblical, and it goes all

The way through Greek mythology or Greek. Writings such as Shellshock or the Thousand Yard Stare, We didn't know how to classify them. So these wars brought forth that. So again, it was a learning piece for us through the medicine, the research, the therapies, and the treatments. So, Alex, anything to add? Yeah.

There were several stories. Every interview with a veteran or spouse was incredibly valuable. There were several stories that we could touch upon in a minute that left me speechless and moved to tears. These are deeply personal stories of service to others. Sacrifice.

Healing. Finding new meaning in life. And through these many interviews, I think at a higher level of abstraction, what we found, and this is how Rob began the discussion, was the sheer humanity involved and the shared sense of humanity.

Veteran. Non-veteran. Our book is focused on veterans and spouses. It applies 100% to the rest of us. Is anyone going through a life transition? Is anyone in need of healing? Anyone who's had a life transition that requires finding a new purpose in life. I've had 3 or 4 of these moments, and so we have put all of ourselves into the book about these things.

Just to continue for a second. What was amazing was that Rob mentioned the Hero's Journey, which is a theory of looking at epic stories, which is the heart of our book, which we can also get to in a minute. And what has been amazing is that the nature of the human condition, the nature of human stories, hasn't changed in thousands of years. When you think about it, how could it be?

And so, the wisdom, for example, of the ancient Greeks is amongst the most powerful lessons we still have today. And if you look at very acclaimed, celebrated military figures, General Mattis would carry Marcus Aurelius meditations in his rucksack and Homer's Iliad and Odyssey going into battle. And they were life lesson syllabuses for him. How amazing is that?

So, in terms of inspiring things that really made us think about what we were doing, there were incredibly moving stories, and there were these larger conceptual life issues.

Okay, I'll tell you, Robert, I just can't imagine going from where you were to civilian life. That's going to be just unbelievable in and of itself. So, I'm just looking forward to getting further and further into this with you, gentlemen.

You mentioned soul searching as part of your process. Can you elaborate on how personal reflection influenced the writing of this book? And, as I said, either one of you can take it, both of you can take it,

I think there was in listening to some of these stories of people emerging from combat, from great difficulty, whether or not in combat.

I think we felt tremendous in front of them. Tremendous humility. We felt an obligation that we had to reciprocate. We had to meet their honesty, their integrity, their willingness to tell stories about their own life and sacrifice their own tears, their attempt at transforming their lives. I think we felt an obligation that we didn't want to be journalists, that we had to put ourselves out there to make this worthwhile, to be, to add to this in a way that was just a matter of decency and humility.

And so, it caused us to talk about our lives, and we've put ourselves in the book, and we've put our own challenges in the book. There are many places where we talk about our own life experiences. Robb tells an endless number of hilarious stories. But also, both of us have shared some of that. And, of course, we couldn't include most of them.

But a shared sense that to make a difference we had to talk about ourselves and our own sense of losses and how we recovered from them, and how those made us, in our hope, better, better men, better fathers, better husbands, and the humility. I say that, I guess, three times in this, that goes into admitting those things.

Yeah. So, these things required us to bear our souls. Yeah. Add or subtract, please. The only thing I would add to that, Alex, and that was perfect, is we had kind of borrowed that word again, humility, to realize that we were standing on the shoulders of giants and everybody that has served before us this long line of veterans all the way back to General Washington and all the Revolutionary War soldiers like that, lineage has just continued on.

So, for us to be able to stand on those shoulders and dive deep into our souls, we felt that we could share enough, and hopefully, people would do the same and come up in step with us. Control your life. Control the narrative. Yeah, I love your ideas. I love your ideas. You know? I mean, I've had a little experience.

I don't know what your experience is, and it's not. But, you know, I have found what works is relating to people. If you can, talk to them, especially Rob and Alex, on your level. And they believe that you understand what they have been through. It works. So much better than, you know, being sort of an outsider in the end.

So, I think the success of the book has been because we want to relate to somebody who's been through what we've been through. You've hit on five essential topics, Jake. You've just touched on the power of choice.

The power? Yeah. 30 years ago, we would have quoted Gary Zhukov and talked about the power of setting your intention. It means the same thing. These things also involve an incredibly human and ancient ritual of speaking with each other. The act of listening, bearing witness, and reciprocating is impossible to replicate with AI.

These are things that are essential to our sense of ourselves or narrative, as Rob was talking about it.

These are things that allow us to heal. Every day, we have these possibilities. These things also implicate the essential aspect. It's an overused word, but it's a real word of community, and that is really healing. We've learned from very modern times from our native warrior societies in this country from ancient times. That healing ultimately only happens in the community.

And there is a whole process around that that I'll stop short of. Rob, please add or subtract.

Not that Alex, I think that was perfect. How do you answer that? Perfect.

Okay. Transitioning from military to civilian life can be incredibly challenging. I'm sure I don't know that. What are the biggest obstacles veterans and their families face? How does your book address these things?

There's a trove of issues. So, let's start with just a few. So as you come back from this call to adventure of service, and you went through this to leaving the known world to the unknown universe, the hero's journey, you come back. Alex and I discovered that you may. You may not be whole. You may be your judgment. Or something may cloud this, preventing you from fully completing this journey.

You know, the Alex of what? The gift from the gods they were supposed to give you. You may not be able to interpret that, or you may not be maybe deserving of it yet because you haven't fixed yourself.

And what could that be from?

That could be PTSD, TBI, physical injury, or moral injury. I mean, the list goes on in the world of emotions, guilt, survivor's guilt, depression, all these things we address in the book because they're all, they all work in a system. They're all working against each other. Because if you have one, there's a good chance there's a comorbidity that, okay, you're dependent upon substance abuse, with alcohol or drugs.

We address that as well. Alex, if there is anything you want to touch on there, No. That's perfect.

Okay. All right. Don't worry about it. Gentlemen, we have a lot of questions. Okay. Your book discusses healing modalities like meditation. Why are these practices important for veterans, and how have they been received by those who you have worked with already?

 

 

Like his meditation, relaxation, and other things, is that something that is a good thing to learn for soldiers to bet r themselves? My view is that it is an essential tool for everyone. And people can engage in it in very different ways. To answer your question directly.

There are numerous organizations, including, for example, the David Lynch Foundation, that are dedicated to veterans and have testimonials from veterans about the power of meditation. Has been very powerful. Let me down to the ground on a micro level, and I'll be the first one to raise my hand to say this has helped me, and I could certainly use help and become better at it. When you meditate meditation, let's focus only on meditation. I think I was just saying that I'm a big meditator myself.

I do it every day. So let me mention a few ideas. And then. And then you tell me what you think of it. Okay, if you are having a really hard time whether your son is physical or non-physical, whether these are wounds or not, then

It's quite an amazing thing that was set aside. If you're starting out one minute or two minutes, when you give yourself time to put everything on the shelf, those problems are going to be there.

When I come back in 100 and 20s. If I can just focus on my breathing if I can just put everything else out of my head. I don't have to have a mantra. You don't have to wear a swami clothes. You don't have to go to Tibet. You can sit in your living room with your butt on the floor.

If I can give myself that, it gives me a sense of peace that interrupts what can be very intrusive or difficult physical and nonphysical things. And that two minutes can be transformative. So, Jay, what do you think about what I just said? I think that's a perfect way to describe meditation. It's what you feel,

It can put you in that situation. I took Transcendental Meditation as a kid. My brother said, oh, you're a little squirrely. And he actually took me at 15. The time they wanted you to meditate was 20 minutes. But because I was so young, they started me out. What you just said with five minutes, then six minutes, then eight minutes.

They had to build myself up. And I've always found this with meditation. You know, no matter what is going through your mind. Stay in the chair, and your mind will follow eventually. So that's all. That's good. I like that you. Yeah. All right. Let me add one thing. We are not advocates of New Age magical mysteries.

If somebody has a medical condition, you need to get to a doctor. Oh, yeah. In our book, as an extensive series of practical steps with the best medical advice that exists in our country today, for every major chapter, what we have attempted to do, in addition to summarizing those things and providing resources and by the way, our website has five annexes to our book that are very helpful, including a list of resources.

Our website is heroeshyphenjourney.net, Heroes, and journey dot net. What we've attempted to do from a life mastery life performance perspective is add to those lists of very practical medical things, a series of other things that any sophisticated medical practitioner would say. It's not just the specific therapy that's going to get you there. It's these different things.

You know, sleep is irreplaceable. The toughest warriors on the planet who are suffering and don't sleep for a week are at severe risk. And, in fact, that has been a precipitate thing. Cause of tragedy. Eating well, avoiding enormous negatives, sabotage, and substance abuse that's hard to control. You can't turn a switch on and off, but there's a series of practical steps.

Physical activity, intense physical activity, being in nature, or being with animals. There's a series of things that a book summarizes, including and beyond meditation, that are part of a more holistic view, which is another reason we thought of you in terms of your bookstore and your own mission. Thank you. The only thing I'd like to add is where, when it'll be out for publication and where I besides, I mean, I'm going to have them and choices, books, and gifts for people to know, but where else can we purchase?

It is on Amazon, too. You tell me, where can they purchase this book?

Sure. So, January 28th to 2025 is the release date; are preorders now? Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Hachette. I think all the major online outlets you can do with Audible are ready to go. And actually, we, Alex, and I found this out. I think it was about a week ago. In our category, we are the number one presale right now.

That's fantastic. That was blown away. It was awesome. Yeah. What I would say is that for folks who are interested in our book, we urge you to preorder it today through Amazon for reasons that we don't quite understand or can control. Our publisher, which is a phenomenal publisher, may not have enough books on January 28th, so we expect they've told us that they're going to run out.

So, not if folks want to buy it. That'd be fantastic. But you really should go to Amazon and order it on preorder now.

Yeah. Being in the book business for years, that's what happens. They don't. And this helps them determine how many they have to print as well. So, the preorders are a great help. And I really suggested, you know, tell you to move forward and do so.

Let me ask you, for veteran spouses or family members, what's one key piece of advice from the book you'd want them to remember? So, if I'm your wife, Rob, or something like that, what do you tell me?

I think they need to understand the journey days. Being on is just as noble and purposeful as that veteran or their significant other who's getting out. They are about to sacrifice. They are about to lose their identity, their community, and everything around them. So, they must sit down and have a family plan or a joint plan as they're getting out and figuring out how they're going to tackle these things. And back to Alex's point, they have to communicate. You have to communicate these things.

If you internalize and go your separate ways, you both lose your identities, your support network, and your community. That's just more internal stress. You're putting on that family unit.

So, what's the hope here? So, say I'm a veteran, and I just get out. It wouldn't be a good idea for me to purchase this book and have my family read it, as though we can read it as a family to understand all of our roles and what we're all going to be going through.

Yes, I think I can only repeat the feedback that we've gotten from, you know, some of the storied four Star Wars throughout the last 20 years of these wars. And, you know, in Bob Gates, we felt we have written the most practical, definitive guide for folks getting out. It is a step-by-step process.

So, 12 to 24 months out, grab the book, pick it up, read it, digest it. If you do nothing else, I will go find someone to talk to and fix yourself if you need to. Then, I would find a mentor, not just one, who was going to help me get a job. Someone who's going to walk you through and point out you may have PTSD, TBI, or this behavior is not normal.

You need to talk to someone. Yeah, No, that's so important. Is that in the book? I listen to me, and my hope is that it's mandatory Army release. When they release it, they should release one of these books along with it. And that, I think, would help a million soldiers. What role does storytelling play in assisting veterans to heal and reintegrate into civilian life?

I think storytelling us, look, we're all we're all the heroes of our own story. We all gravitate to story. We've been storytelling since, you know, we were drawing pictures on cave walls. It is what it is, part of part of life. It is part of who we are. So, we want to relate to something, if it's, you know, the eight themes of The Canterbury Tales or the Hero's Journey. We are looking for something that helps us define our own lives.

Because I go back to what I said, we want to control the narrative. We want to be the heroes of our own story. And we are, I'm sorry. We don't want to be. We are the Heroes.

Having a path. Alex. Yeah, that's the most essential thing. Cool. I would point to two minor things from the standpoint of all of our hearts and emotions. The emotional part of our lives. Nothing replaces speaking and expressing yourself, particularly on a heart level. So, if it's you and your best friend, you and your children, you and your spouse or wife. Nothing replaces communication of a heart nature that is honest and seeks to express yourself and express curiosity about the other. That is also an essential part of the human ritual.

And it is. An essential part of how we welcome back veterans is that we give them a space for that, for veterans to do in a place, if they choose, only with veterans. But there's a tremendous opportunity to invite nonveterans to that, and that is how the rest of our society benefits from the immense wisdom and life experiences of our warriors.

This is to bring it up again. This is something that our most famous Native American warriors have spoken about. It is how, as Senator McCain said, we educate our politicians about the gravity of sending young men and women into harm's way. This is what we need as a society to know, recognize, and act on.

Okay, great.

All right. How does your book differentiate itself from other resources for veterans? I'm sure they have other things out there. What do you think sets you apart?

There are probably three essential things. Number one, Warrior Two Civilian, is the only complete guide to the many books about and by veterans.

Some cover resumes of some that tell meaningful stories or some that tell war stories. There's a bunch of Veterans Administration benefits. There are psychology and workbooks. We don't send anyone into a dark room to fill out worksheets. This is a complete guide. We refer to the Field Manual, which is an Army term for the manuals that you need to do your job, and it is full.

It's the whole waterfront. And because of that, we provide resources in the book and on our website. Hero eshyphen journey net that allows people to see the broad waterfront of this life transition.

Which transition doesn't happen after you take off your uniform? This transition can be lifelong.

That's number one. It's a complete guide. Number two, it is very multidisciplinary.

We bring in resources from every walk of life. So, performance coaches, job and resume coaches, we bring in the wisdom of Doctor Eric Potter, who was a psychologist for Navy and Naval Special Warfare, about the lessons of performing and. Excellent. We bring in among the most impactful doctors and doctors from hospital systems, those who know about cutting-edge technology.

It is a multi-disciplinary approach. It's not just one modality. I think the third thing that's quite different is that every chapter's inspiration was built off of veteran's stories. We're not talking theory. We really hope people don't think we're speaking down to them. This is meant to be the stories of veterans and spouses that provide great heart and great wisdom.

Those three things make us quite different from what else is out there.

All right. Let me ask first. Rob, did you hear me ask that question? And is there anything you want to add to what Alex just said? Which I thought he did a great job. Alex, I think I think I think Alex nailed it. I think he did a great job.

Cool, all right.

What feedback have you received so far from the veterans or their families who have read early versions of the book? And have they had people read early versions of the book yet? Yes. Okay. A lot of one-word responses. Amazing. Unreal. Now you did it. I know it's a few words, but I mean, it's the feedback we have got.

We have it. It has been, it's been very humbling to sit back and like, okay, we did it.

The guide that was guidelines that were given to us by General McChrystal getting out the gate on this probably about 12 months ago ended it. If you don't make this practical, this is going to collect dust in taking those words and internalizing and moving forward and doing the research

From working for four years. To have the feedback now is like, okay, we did it right. We are providing a service, or we're still in service to those veterans because we are giving them the best knowledge we can find. Okay. Yeah. All right. I found a few other questions I was hoping I could ask. So here goes. Okay. What systematic changes do you think need to happen to better support veterans transitioning into civilian life?

Maybe things that they're not doing now? For instance, reading your book.

That's always a good plug. So, I'll speak from the veteran side. And then Alex, if you want to pick up from where the VA and the government piece, I think you talk to that very well. But, you know, we spend all this time training for a mission.

We're in the service of the Constitution, you know, you know, then we serve in our branch or our function within the military, with millions of dollars worth of training, training for a mission to do this.

But we don't train to get out. We don't, we don't unless you're retiring. So, I just went back and had my 20-year reunion. Naval Academy and my friends are like, there's more paperwork to get out of the military at 20 years or over. Then, getting in.

So, they're starting their paperwork out 12 months, six months early because they have it's just naturally kind of the course of things, how it's set up for someone who does two, three, 4, or 5 years up to ten, 14.

There's not those Guideposts because you just do a little bit of paperwork, and you're out, and you're supposed to go to a three-day course. They teach you this, and then that's it. So, we do all this training in the military, but we do not train to get out. So, it's up to the individual to take control.

This can take control of their own story, their own life, to do this out.

I'm just shocked. Shocked that, you know, as you say, you train for these missions. You've done so much for the country, and God knows what, what, what you've seen, heard, and have done. And it's only three little, you know, things you got to do to get out and go back. I just don't see where that makes any sense at all.

But please go ahead. And it doesn't. And we've contacted some military bases where maybe half the people show up for the mandatory course. So, it's, yeah, it's a little; it's just frustrating that there's not more. Now, there are a lot of nonprofits out there that have tried to fill the gap to help veterans with these transitions, such as special operations. They have their own community that does this.

You know, there's probably a few other nonprofits floating around some of the bigger, you know, Navy Marines. But I think that's a good segue for Alex to talk about the VA and the government

and what they're doing. Yeah, Rob nailed the heart of it. Let me cut this from a different perspective.

I'd say three things. Number one, we love our country. We are devoted to our government.

Regardless of who's in power. Our government, however, can do more. The government needs to do more. Having said that, it's a pretty tough job, but the transition assistance programs on the way out are very thin compared to what is needed.

We think that our book is one of a few resources that could supplement that and provide a guide for further training and preparation for the veteran, the spouse, and the family. So, the government, number one and number two private industry companies, should focus on hiring veterans and military spouses. This is part of our social contract with each other.

If you serve, all of us will support your transition. A key aspect of that is jobs. Jobs bring necessary resources, any job of any kind. It brings great dignity and opportunity to the individual in their lives.

Our country is full of companies that can be doing this more and better. By better, we mean there's a series of specific steps that can be done.

Rob mentioned mentorship. That's number one, but there's a series of things that companies in our country can do. Employers of all kinds, including government, can make the transition better. The third category is really what Rob touched on. I'll summarize it very quickly.

Tom Satterlee, who is a remarkable speaker, has his own foundation to help veterans with trauma and other things. It was inspirational to us. Tom was portrayed in the movie Black Hawk Down, from that tragic battle. And the issue, among other things. And the question that he often asks is, so you're having a hard time with the transition, you veteran, what have you done to train for it? You train for military missions. And the way Rob said a moment ago, what have you done to train for this mission?

Because what we've heard from others is this civilian transition, this civilian life,

not to take for granted battle combat service. And I say that with the greatest humility as a civilian member of our team. But what we've heard over and over again is that life transition. And by the way, this is true for nonveterans. As for veterans, it is very challenging.

The terrain is very challenging. It's just very different. You have to take responsibility. Rob began this conversation with the power of choice for the veteran. The veteran himself has to take responsibility for their life transition. That's the third piece.

Okay. You know, in the book, I just want to ask, you know, you guys mentioned that it's very important to have a mentor in the books. It shows you how to maybe go about that. To get a mentor.

It's a new skill. We really are. And I'm going to take a step back to just networking in general. In the military, we never really understand the power of networking or doing this because it's all selfless service. We're not supposed to be breaking the chain of command to go meet the general or the colonel that we really admire, but he's not within our chain of command.

We're not. We don't do that. So, unless we work in a joint environment across different agencies or military branches, we don't really get a lot of that. So, it's somewhat new. So, asking for help is another problem. We're geared towards just compartmentalizing and not asking for help. Throw the rucksack on, keep going, and just shut up and keep going.

So, all these things are new. You really go back to Alex's point. I hate to be trite about this. The power of choice. You have to say I have to ask for help. And there are so many people out there who are willing to help you. We also talk about the pitfalls. Ifs: if you're coming out of the military service and if you're a combat vet, you're going to get even more elevated.

If they know this, you're going to have a meeting and a conversation. The problem is, if that interview or that meeting turns into your military experience, you have to control that narrative and say, no, I'm sorry. Yes, I did. All these things are great. I really need help on this. And then either they're going to have someone to help you, or they're going to pass you off to the next person, which, unfortunately, even General McChrystal told us you turned into a show pony at some point.

So, you really have to be selective in finding the right mentor, someone who really has your true intentions and wants to do the best for you. I also had many mentors who helped me find jobs. I absolutely did, and I only had one, maybe 1 or 2, that hinted like, hey, are you okay? It sets the stage for many issues and problems to come up with.

A couple years of transitions in my life, but not dealing with the emotional piece and having a mentor to guide me through that, so it's mentorship on many different levels. Alex. No, that's and you know, I'm sure it's so difficult, more so than civilians, for soldiers to ask for help because there's that machismo, that macho that yeah, you know, that's there.

It must, it must, you know, it must be difficult. I feel that it's more it's part of veteran. Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. And, like a small example, I just did not want to ask for help. I mean, gee, I had a really bad concussion on my last combat deployment where a wall kind of collapsed, and I fell probably six feet and just knocked out cold.

I still had six months of deployment to go. I didn't ask for help. I didn't want to leave. My guys didn't want to be taken out of the fight. So finally, when I get back, it's doing all this paperwork, and you go for TBI. Have you ever been exposed to blast pressure? Good. Yeah, a lot of explosions, a lot of a lot of C’s-4. You ever, you know, had a concussion, like, yes, I did.

Well, then you go into the hospital, and everybody in Balboa Medical is just staring at me like, we don't see too many of you guys in here. And that's the point. Yeah. And that was the point, like, we don't go seek help.

And I'm just guessing a lot of these things, if they don't get fixed early on, continue and get worse.

When you go home, some fester, and B actually become time bombs waiting to go off. Yeah. Let's extrapolate this beyond the military. When we grew up, we were not told as guys that expressing ourselves and being vulnerable were valued. Right. It was John Wayne who was trying to figure out we didn't have the hole at all into the desert.

You know, that's what I grew up on. The bullet holes in you and go off into the desert alone. You see, it's amazing. Thank God the world is a bit different from that today. But, you know, I got to ask this. You know, in the diverse world we live in today, this is going to cover the next question.

So, your book touches on diversity, including veterans of color and LGBTQ veterans. What unique challenges do these groups face, and how can we better support them?

I cannot speak for the military because when I was in the military, these issues weren't there. They were. I'd take that back. I'm sorry that the LGBTQ community is not really dealt with there. Within the race. I mean,

I never dealt with it at the level I served at. I never dealt with it.

 

Everybody was a soldier, and that was it. Everybody was there. If you meet the standard, you earn your pride. And every day, you were there to perform the mission; you were there in service to the Constitution, our teammates, and everybody around us. You step left or right of that, you're gone. Yeah, yeah. It didn't matter who you were. Have a more difficult transition than, say, older people who don't have some of those issues. I don't know. You're right. I want to take a step back and. Yeah. Alex, if you're going to, I'll pass the pass the ball to you here. But taking a step back, I just want to say in full realization some people did not serve in that type of community, that close-knit community that has the struggles that we found and uncovered.

And I'll let Alex speak to me, but I just want to recognize, yes, I, I know there, I just did not see a lot of it. Okay. Yeah. Alex. That’s Your experience. Yeah. Let me answer it from a different perspective. When most veterans come back, there can be. And it's quite common to feel isolated and to isolate yourself, which is really which is really painful and difficult and something to be very aware of.

And this is a true veteran nonveteran in any life transition. This has happened to me multiple times when I come back and sit in my living room. I am alone, and I'm feeling alone and isolated and not part of the world around me.

If you have grown up, if your life is, if you look and feel, and who you are, it is different from others. I'm speaking about it in the most essential ways, not with a kind of modern terminology. Still, I think that, in a way that's more fundamental than the risks of feeling isolated and not belonging, I should use a current word, which is pretty valuable.

Those risks, those perceptions of the hurts, the hurts in the heart that come from those things. It's not hard to imagine how magnified they are. Yeah, yeah. If I'm sitting at a table with my best friends, and there's one guy that is different from us because of how he looks. He's suffering at the table as a matter of decency, as a matter of love, for my friend may not be at the table.

We're all talking, but I'm going to want to make sure he's okay. Don't we owe that to each other as part of this? And that's an absolutely great answer. And that's the lens through which we looked at these things in the book, because particularly when it comes to depression and substance abuse, including because of some terrible experiences, military sexual trauma, which is much higher than the civilian counterparts, then these things can be very painful.

As part of our reaching out as a matter of human decency to those who have served, those to whom we owe a duty of support, and extending the welcoming, the reintegration back. These are things that we should be aware of. That's why I answer your question. I think you answered it very well.

Thank you so much. All right. So let me ask you this. What's next for each of you? Do you see warrior to civilian as the start of a broader mission? We've had to negotiate this, and I've conceded. That I can be Butch Cassidy, and he can be the Sundance Kid in the movie version.

From what you all know, it's the gods, heroes. I hope that happens. Yeah, yeah. I think the second mission is kind of already started. We have been in some discussions with some large companies. We've gone and looked at the research. We looked at the civilian corporations that have veteran transition programs and those that don't.

So, I think the book is the stepping stone to what the continuation would be to help to continue the education process of how to help folks transition into these larger companies, or if they need, I say, smaller companies, we're willing to get the message out there to anybody. Okay, okay. Last but not least, of course, what are you? What are your parting words?

Why don't you go first down? Is there anything you want to leave people with?

And I know there's so much, you know, there's one thing that is really just one thing. If you're having a hard time and you feel hopeless, if you have reoccurring headaches or depression or whatever it is,

Don't give up. Never, ever give up. There is help.

There are resources. We believe in this book, and the annexes on the website provide resources. But there are new therapies, new technologies, and new applications of some very ancient healing modalities. Never give up. Love it, love it. Yeah. Rob, I'm going to go down the shorter version, but I'm going to rely on people much smarter than me in the past.

So, Churchill, when you're going through hell, keep going. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Love it. Guys. Love it.