Episode 28: OpenRecovery: Revolutionizing Addiction Support with AI

Discover how Zachary Gidwitz, CEO of OpenRecovery, is transforming addiction recovery with AI-driven solutions. Learn about the innovative 12-step support app designed to enhance recovery journeys through personalized guidance and community connection.

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Podcast Transcript:

Hello world, and welcome to Choices, Books and Gifts, where you always have choices. I'm glad you're tuning in. We have a very special guest with us today. His name is Zachary Gidwitz, and when you hear what he does, it is. It fascinated me, and that's why I asked him to join the podcast. So before we go into the questions with Zachary, I'm going to read a little bit about his bio.

So, you understand more about who we're working with today. Here we go.

Zachary Gidwitz is the co-founder and CEO of OpenRecovery, the company behind 12 Steps Addiction Recovery and an AI-driven app that provides tailored support for those in recovery. Originally from Baltimore, Zachary's career includes entrepreneurship and working with top tech companies in the US, Brazil, and China.

He has over eight years of active recovery himself. He combines first-hand experience with advanced A.I. technology to make personalized recovery support wildly accessible. Very cool. As I said, this whole A.I. world and what it offers today fascinates me. And I've seen your product firsthand, and I think it's an amazing product. So, I'm going to tell you a little bit more about it.

Okay. Sounds good.

Good morning, Zachary. I didn't do that. How are you today? Good morning, Jay. I'm doing really well. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. And thank you for being on the podcast. Okay, so

let me ask you this. Could you describe the role of AI and how the app supports users in their day-to-day recovery?

How does that how do it work? Sure. So, look, I love the 12 steps. I still work

the 12 steps. It's part of how I live my life. And we know that the opposite of addiction is connection. We know that this works. You know, two people with a substance use disorder working together. And so the first thing I just want to say is I never thought of this replacing that human connection.

But the first thing it does is it checks in on you and, you know, asks if you have a sponsor. You know, what is your recovery? It starts to get an understanding of you through talking and chatting back and forth. I want to understand where you are in your recovery and see if it can prompt you to take your first step to go to a meeting.

Take your first step to ask someone to be your sponsor. Then, after that, what the app does is it gives you all the resources you need. You know, whether it's the materials, readings, quotations, or videos to help supplement your program. Then this chatbot, who we call Chi, will be there for you if it's 2:00   am and you are triggered, and your sponsors are asleep, or you don't have a sponsor yet.

So, I'm going to talk to you or hold your hand, if you will, as you start working the steps, asking questions, and doing things like that. Great. You know, it's funny because you said that you're a big 12-step guy. You still work the program. And, you know, I've always said me to 12 steps AA great. But even with your app, you're not going away from the 12 steps.

You're just enhancing everything. So, you know you are still doing the steps, but you are relating to the youth of today, the AI that a lot of them may find this, you know, so much more helpful with the program. And I think that's what we're accomplishing here. Yeah. All right.

Stepwork is a significant part of many recovery journeys. How does your AI assist users in planning and organizing their step work? How does that work?

So, you know, you said just now about how we don't go away from the 12 steps, and that's absolutely true. I didn't want to try and reinvent how to do recovery. We got the 12 steps. We have all these fellowships and decades of knowledge on it.

And so, everything we do and everything we have in there is based, you know, on the 12 steps in the big book. For doing step work itself, when you start using the app, you can choose which fellowship we support over 20 different fellowships, 12 step fellowships. You can choose multiple fellowships. You can work many at the same time.

And then it just has a list of questions, dozens of questions per step. Sometimes even more. And for all of them, there's a little button that says Big Book and you can even see where each of those questions comes from. All we do is take the original big book, turn each paragraph into a question or a few questions, and let the user know. Hopefully, the user and their sponsor will answer that.

And if they give some sort of high-level answer, maybe just one sentence, I then push them. Can you give an example? Can you go a little deeper? It seems like there might be some fear under there. You know, what do you think that's about? And it really probes a user. But all based on the big book and or that methodology.

Do you suggest they do it with a sponsor, especially in the beginning? But as you said, at two in the morning, I don't want to hassle my sponsor. This is something I can do on my own, more or less. So, I don't know how to work the steps without a sponsor. And I would never write, you know?

I would never recommend it. What we did see, though, is that a lot of our early customers, we got so many surveys back, when we talked with them, over 2001 of the surprising things was 85% of them said, I need a sponsor. So, the sad reality is that a lot of people who are interested in the 12 steps or even working on the 12 steps don't have a sponsor or are looking for a new sponsor for some reason.

And so, we, the AI, can act as that bridge, you know, even if you're not going to start

working on the steps with the AI. You just want to chat, or you just want to do, for example, an inventory like your nightly inventory or a resentment inventory or a spot check. Do you know what we call a ten-step inventory?

These are the kinds of things you can do without a sponsor. During the whole time, it might still prompt you to strategize with you on how you can take that step to ask someone to be your sponsor.

Excellent. Great answer. What are some of the unique resources your app offers that users might not find in other recovery apps?

So, we are the first app that I've seen for individual working recovery based on the 12 steps and using AI.

This is the individual's app. It's their data. A recovery center, some monitoring service, or anything like that does not own this. They get to see all of the data that is collected and see how the AI learn.

So, it's really just a place where the more they talk with the AI, the more who is the name of the AI, and the more Chi learns about the individual and can provide better hyper-personalized guidance and responses. We're the only app on the market that does that.

Perfect. That's great. Congratulations. Could you share more about how OpenRecovery fosters community among its current and future customers?

So again, this is this is one of those things we have really been careful about. What we don't want is someone saying, oh, thank God, I now have this AI, and I don't have to talk to anyone anymore about my recovery. That would be a failure. The first thing we did was add this feature, which we call accountability partners.

And this is just anyone in your life who you want to be involved in your recovery. And this can be a sponsor. This can be a therapist. This can be a loved one, a partner, or another fellow. They can also get daily or weekly updates on your progress. That can be things like how many days in a row you have done an inventory.

It can be what your what your day count is. It can be how many steps you've done or questions you've done in terms of step work. And you can decide how many you know or what each person you know. Maybe my sponsor gets to see everything. Maybe my partner will get to see it.

Okay, I went to a meeting this week and nothing else.

Because it really, you know, all the data should belong to the individual using this. But what we realized is 46, according to two statistics, we saw 46% of adults in the United States have a close friend or family member who has a substance use disorder. Absolutely. And so there's really not much for them. So what we want to do is take that accountability report, which is already live, and they can use it and start to get more involved.

Later on, we're going to develop an AI for them as well where they can ask questions and learn more about what he's been recovering from for ten years. Why is he still going to meetings? Things that you know might make a lot of sense about recovery to people in recovery, but to their loved ones, people in their circles might not understand, and their loved ones might need support.

So that's where we're going with this as well. And that's fantastic. Fantastic. As I said, I think this is just going to be something extraordinary to encourage people to do the work. Yes, we get involved with others. We have so many people nowadays. You know, we've learned with the phones and the computers. Let's just set the Zoom. Let's just stay at home and work and be with ourselves for hours.

This app sounds like it. Enhance says you should get involved with others in the program. And that's so important for us. I even know when I came in, I was shy, and I sat in the back corner until, you know, I got it. As you said, you know.

All right. What feedback have you received from the users this has that has helped you shape or refine the app?

So, this is the most significant piece of feedback we're looking for. Honestly, it was actually very encouraging in terms of what people are looking for, which is a search for connection and wanting. For example, out of those 85% that say I need a sponsor, they were hoping that the app could give them a sponsor, right? Either be a sponsor, you know, with AI or have some sort of matching system, and while we can't currently just suggest, oh, like a dating app for sponsors, things like that.

I've got to interrupt for one second.

Can you see yourself with the AI? Can they have an AI sponsor or that?

That's just not where we want to go. I think the AI is already able to act as a very good recovery assistant and recovery coach. However, a true sponsor has to go through the steps. A true sponsor has to know what it's like to suffer from addiction.

And at this point, I don't think we can have a person with an addiction. So, I think that while someone might be able to get a lot of the benefits if you don't have a real person to connect to who's been through it, I do think you're missing something. I agree 100%, but this is where we actually have an opportunity to help here.

Something that we have found from our users. And I've found myself, look, I sponsor people, and there are a lot of times when one of my sponsors comes to me with a problem, and I don't know what to say. You know, I'm drawing a blank, and I have gone to Kai. I've gone to ROI and said, hey, here's the situation.

What should I tell my sponsor? I have gotten such good recommendations that we decided that this is the next feature we're going to build, which is where the sponsor and sponsor can connect on the app and then the sponsor. This can be a bit of a sponsor copilot, where the sponsor can get some suggestions on how to better sponsor their sponsor.

We hope that good sponsors are going to be able to sponsor more people and people who might not have been comfortable raising their hand saying, yes, I can sponsor. Maybe they're going to be more ready to take that leap. Love it. Love it. All right.

What's on the horizon for OpenRecovery? Are there new features or tools? Are you planning to roll out different things?

So yes, there are a lot of tools that we've been thinking about. And we're talking with our users right now to see what's going to be the most exciting.

The first thing we want to do is we're going to do much more in terms of insights. We have people who are having long conversations with key, back and forth. Already, Chi can save different insights and different things like, oh, this seems to trigger the user, or this is something that, you know, maybe you want to do when you're triggered better.

But we know what we can actually give much longer reports of saying here are something we've learned patterns, you know, that lead to relapse, return to use or things that seem to be associated with sustained sobriety for you. We can basically make those deeper insights, and the user can reference them themselves. The AI can reference them in future conversations, and they can share it with their recovery community, with their sponsor, and with their partners.

And we are using AI, which is already really good at providing those more profound insights. That's the first thing that we're going to build, probably later this year.

The other one I just want to mention would just be that way of a sponsor and sponsee connecting on the app and a sponsor being able to see the information on their sponsor, their progress on the app, and then click a button to talk with Kai about their sponsor, you to get more advice on what to do and how to be more helpful.

You know, I love it. I love, first of all, what you call Kai. I don't know if that stands for anything, but it's wonderful that it has a name to go to and with the world, which is ever-changing. I love the whole idea that it's a work in progress because next year, the year at, like I'm saying, you can keep building on this, and that's just such a wonderful opportunity.

How have you seen your AI approach impact the recovery experience for people with diverse needs? For example, are those following 12-step programs versus secular approaches?

Yeah. So this is a big one. You know, a lot of the language used, even in the most recent edition of the Big Book, you know, is still the language that was written by, you know, let's face it, a bunch of straight white Christian men who were in Akron, Ohio, you know, and talking to people who were like them for the most part.

Right. There was some diversity back then, but there are a lot of people who don't know that language works for them when they know you. Flip to the chapter called To Wives, and they say, forget this. I'm not interested in this. And, you know, Jay, you and I, we've worked the program so long. I think it works more for us.

We know sort of where they were coming from. We give the benefit of the doubt. We can update any language we need to. Still, even things like saying God a lot for some people, maybe they had a traumatic experience with religion growing up. It just is something they don't want to deal with. But a small tweak, saying higher power instead of God, is enough for them to open up to the program.

When you first use the app and talk to Kai, it's going to ask you if you are comfortable with this language. How would you like to refer to your higher power? I was seeing one user. I guess he was being a little silly, but he says my higher power is named Jeff.

Okay. For the rest of that time, Kai referred to the higher power as Jeff, and that was enough to let him actually start working the program that way.

And by the way, later, he changed it back when he realized that that wasn't really working for him. So sometimes it's just about customizing, personalizing the language and experience enough, meeting people where they are so that they can get to the real crux of the program. Then they open up a little bit more.

I hear you, and that's why, you know, what I love about a is it says make your your God. The, you know, the one you want it to be. You can choose with that, and I've heard people say it's a room of sober alcoholics. It's this or that. For me, it is a god. It is a god. And it's a very spiritual program. And I think that works for me. But, you know, there are a lot of ways to get to where you want to go.

That is exactly what I'm saying. And I think this is a nice presentation and way of doing that.

Finally, what do you hope users take away from their experience on 12-step addiction and recovery, even after they may no longer need the app? So. And will you come to a time when you don't need the app?

This gets into some really interesting topics on where this technology is going. A lot of people in the high-tech space are predicting that very soon. Whether it's a matter of months or years, more and more, we are going to have our own AI assistants, our assistants that might exist just in our phones. Maybe they're going to be in our glasses; maybe they're going to be full robots that are affordable and just hanging out with us.

And they're all going to be powered by one or multiple AI models. Now, I know that this can be a little bit of a scary future, and honestly, it is a scary future. It's scary for me. That motivates me even more to continue developing this AI because right now, the main foundational models, the the AI models, don't understand addiction and recovery.

They don't know how to talk to people in addiction and recovery. They're very good at helping people get what they want. But you and I both know that for people in recovery or active addiction, sometimes what we want is not suitable for us. I am trying to figure out how, for AI, to bridge that gap, that sort of misalignment inside of us, and talk to people whose brains might be different a little bit than the general population.

That is what we are working on. And so, to develop an AI that, regardless of whether you're working just the 12 steps or different methodologies that are similar to your previous question, is more secular. We're talking with Smart Recovery. We're looking at, you know, different things. All we care about is meeting people where they are and helping them live the life they want to.

That aligns with their values. So, if they feel they don't need the 12 steps anymore for some reason, I mean, for me, it's a lifelong thing, I love it. I still believe that we are creating an AI that, whether it's in this app or outside, will be a net positive, a contribution to that future where the AI companion is everywhere. We are the data source, or we are the AI source that helps those companions work in a positive, healthy and productive way with people in recovery.

Yeah, the 12 steps never. I mean, the 12 steps never end. And recovery never ends. I'm recovered, but I still have to put the work and knowledge into it.

That's fantastic. So let me ask you this. So, people hear this podcast, they see it, and they get all excited. They're happy about it. How do we get involved? Great.

So, the first thing you can do is try it out. It's free. And even all of the AI features are going to be free for, you know, a free trial. And look, if you're someone who loves all of the features, it's really helpful. And,

If you, you know, try out all the AI features and then realize you really love it but can't afford the 999 a month that it's going to be. Just contact me, you know, email support at 12 steps dot app. Email Zachary at OpenRecovery.com. I see all the emails. Well, we'll get you set up because this is just about helping people.

It's expensive to make these AI models. You know, we need to have a revenue source so that we can keep the lights on and keep making better and better technologies. So that's why some of it's going to be behind a paywall.

But all of the resources and even being able to do your inventories with the AI, you know, a number of inventories, you know, we're going to make a lot of that free moving for always because the resources of the 12 steps, hey, that should be there for everyone.

And until then, go ahead. Just contact me with your ideas. Request feedback because we're just trying to help as many people as we can, and we're just a small group of people. We want to hear from you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, they pass the bucket around in Alcoholics Anonymous, and this is something 999 is not that hard.

Now, do I understand people first coming in and can't afford it? Yes. But I think the value in this is great, and it's so inexpensive that it's certainly doable. But the only thing he didn't give me was, so I was here; I was listening to this. Where do I go? What's the website? Got it. So, the website is OpenRecovery.com.

You can have the links to our apps there. If you search for 12 Steps Addiction Recovery in the App Store or Google Play, it should come up right there at the top. Oh, look at this. Look for this logo. Love it. Love it, love it. Well, our show is coming to an end now.

I want to thank you for such an interesting topic, and I hope and feel it'll be very successful. I wish you all the best in the world. I want to thank you for being on our podcast.

And I always ask this before I end the podcast. Is there anything in general or anything that we didn't cover that you'd like to leave our listeners with?

The last thing I would want to say is that our mission is to make recovery accessible and effective for everyone. If you hear this and you are still trying to figure out how to get support, regardless of whether it's an app or 12 steps or anything, there are more and more resources online. There. Recovery is something that is being talked about more and more openly.

We call our company OpenRecovery because we are seeing a future where the stigma of recovery is being reduced. People can just talk about it openly and proudly that I live out loud, you know, I'm open with my recovery recovering out loud. And that's something that we're of a vision we're really committed to, to seeing. So get in touch, go online, find resources and if you start sharing some of your struggles with people,

They are probably going to be much more open to this topic than you might imagine.

They might even be struggling themselves. So that's just take this. Once again, thank you so much. I hope that we'll be talking in the near future, finding out the new things that are going on, and I believe we're going to send, on November 19th, a mass email out. So that may help a lot of you and remind you that this is out there and available.

So, Zachary, thank you. God bless you. I want you to have a wonderful day. And to all our listeners, I thank you for tuning in. May God bless you and look after you always. Thank you so much, Jay.